tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post5993214000339755966..comments2023-11-05T02:01:53.847-06:00Comments on Antagony & Ecstasy: TOLKIEN ON FILM: IT IS A LOVELY LANGUAGE, BUT IT TAKES A VERY LONG TIME TO SAY ANYTHING IN ITTimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09491952893581644049noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-46712349112335362882012-12-13T19:13:02.607-06:002012-12-13T19:13:02.607-06:00I'm actually really regretting the choice of p...I'm actually really regretting the choice of phrase "visual artist" which is much more broad than I really mean it, and I definitely did not put enough thought into my wording.<br /><br />I mean, basically, shooting action in a manner that, to me, is both beautiful and functional. I don't really want to argue that the movies made by Snyder are more visually artistic than, say, PTA. But I also don't want to reduce it to something so meaningless as "it's more beautiful than Michael Bay's work" because, well, I think an average 8 year old could do a better job shooting and cutting action than Bay.<br /><br />I guess, what I'm saying is, if I needed a scene of people fighting that was gorgeous and artistic and done at a remove from reality, I would hire Zack Snyder without a second thought, unless James Cameron was available. Does that make sense?Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04546972990126033036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-29541771757936787982012-12-13T18:49:07.630-06:002012-12-13T18:49:07.630-06:00More obvious, mainstream, and fanboyish: CameronMore obvious, mainstream, and fanboyish: CameronBrianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04546972990126033036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-25112173180081360992012-12-13T14:48:02.218-06:002012-12-13T14:48:02.218-06:00David- "fun" and "a point" wou...David- "fun" and "a point" would definitely be two things that would have gotten me on board.<br /><br />Brian- Ah, well, we all know that I wouldn't piss on Synder if he was on fire, but I'll give you a pass this time. And I probably will, before I die, revisit the director's cut.<br /><br />In the meantime, you've got me curious about your first-favorite: the "decade and a half" thing makes me think Leos Carax?<br /><br />DerFuhrer- Seeing it tomorrow: my opinion on the movie goes up Sunday, and on 48 fps Monday, unless the latter is so debilitating to the former that I can't help myself.Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09491952893581644049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-17429188899574928452012-12-13T13:13:47.556-06:002012-12-13T13:13:47.556-06:00I have come back to you now. At the turn of the ti...I have come back to you now. At the turn of the tide.<br /><br />Or rather, after my screening of The Hobbit, in its wonky 48 fps format. I will not say any more, but I now can't wait for what you have to say about it.Atrophyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12343178335810325537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-15171853902234876362012-12-13T04:14:57.052-06:002012-12-13T04:14:57.052-06:00I have this strange thing where I am generally a b...I have this strange thing where I am generally a borderline cinephile, but I fucking love Zack Snyder.<br /><br />But Sucker Punch. I literally sat in the theater for a good two or three minutes past the credits, trying to figure out what I had just watched, and how I felt about it. I left still unsure.<br /><br />When I got the blu-ray, and watched said extended cut, I still wasn't completely sure what I had just seen, but my feeling crystallized: Most. Underrated Movie. Ever.<br /><br />Of course, I know Tim doesn't care for Snyder and might ban me from ever discussing movies here again for this next part:<br /><br />It doesn't hurt that Snyder is the second best visual artist in films today, and the best that has made more than one film in the last decade and a half.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04546972990126033036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-77827950257498137122012-12-12T20:22:49.815-06:002012-12-12T20:22:49.815-06:00Since so many people are reading this thread I mus...Since so many people are reading this thread I must cheer on the Extended Cut of Sucker Punch. It includes many essential elements removed from the film, such as "plot", a "climax", and a "point". Also, "fun".David Greenwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03666205737413060006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-29218968613819324222012-12-12T00:10:02.649-06:002012-12-12T00:10:02.649-06:00Oh for Christ's sake...that damn U.S. Cut of T...Oh for Christ's sake...that damn U.S. Cut of <i>The Descent</i>. Why did you bring that memory up, Tim? Kevin J. Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17275402809912728035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-15922470212631845072012-12-11T03:05:33.214-06:002012-12-11T03:05:33.214-06:00I actually hold the heretical amongst Tolkien fans...I actually hold the heretical amongst Tolkien fans opinion that movie Faramir is a vast improvement over the flat two-dimensional perfect nice guy of the books. I horrified a girl I used to work with who is a huge Tolkien nerd by saying that.<br /><br />Seriously, here he actually has a character (although it definitely takes the extended cut to really get all of it) and depth and an arc. So much more interesting.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04546972990126033036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-42900579238634557862012-12-10T19:41:00.209-06:002012-12-10T19:41:00.209-06:00I've always thought the Two Towers to have the...I've always thought the Two Towers to have the best of the extended editions because its extra material is the most important to its respective movie. The theatrical cut leaves out all explanation of Faramir's motivation for the ring, and so he comes off looking like a villain solely because Peter Jackson needs him to without any sort of logical internal reason. The whole Frodo/Sam/Gollum storyline suffers from this lack of explanation, and it only makes sense in the extended cut. The Fellowship EE added some lovely material, but none of it was as badly needed as the Faramir backstory material (and the ending, as you mentioned).Benjaminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14709333325776591295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-30890617399397232902012-12-10T18:08:15.570-06:002012-12-10T18:08:15.570-06:00I didn't really have a clean segue into way of...I didn't really have a clean segue into way of mentioning this in my first post, but since we're still mostly on the same topic, I'll venture that I think the Kingdom of Heaven director's cut is unambiguously a better film in every possible way. Still not a great film, but a better one across the board.<br /><br />I can't think of any others off the top of my head that weren't simply a matter of someone else cutting a film <i>after</i> it had already been released as its director's cut, e.g. Deep Red.<br /><br />I'd be curious to know what Tim (and everyone else) thought on the matter of the 144-minute version of The Shining versus the 115-minute Kubrick-preferred international cut, too.Chris Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07633087241215626035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-87307647441137225512012-12-10T17:33:59.403-06:002012-12-10T17:33:59.403-06:00I actually prefer the battle in ROTK to the one in...I actually prefer the battle in ROTK to the one in The Two Towers. In the latter, everything's so hopelessly against the good guys it's not even funny. At least in the former I get some sense of eqillibrium in the odds (even before the ghosts show up).<br /><br />I'm not sure if it's TTT or ROTK, but the only bit with Faramir I hate is the failed attempt to retake Osgiliarth. It's the only bit in the whole trilogy for me that feels like genuine padding.<br /><br />I should just quickly say to Tim; great blog by the way. Read it for months but only just registered a Google account in order to actually comment on it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10451725864121168941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-54193829823935460402012-12-10T16:26:40.894-06:002012-12-10T16:26:40.894-06:00This was my least favorite at the time of the tril...This was my least favorite at the time of the trilogy's release because I was in my teens and therefore prone to fanboyism. I protested its revisions and felt that the total rewrite of Faramir was an outrage.<br /><br />I'm no longer all that fussed about faithfulness (I actually can't believe my ears when people STILL bitch about Tom Bombadil and his song to nowhere not being included), but this is still my least favorite of the three. Faramir's revision is no longer as much an issue, but the banality of Osgiliath and the questionable choices Jackson makes in shooting those sequences are.<br /><br />And as oddly paced as Tolkien's bifurcation is, I like the note that TT ends on as a book. Typical "second act is the darkest" stuff, sure, but a damn sight better than the tonally off escape from Osgiliath and the somewhat toothless promise of Shelob to come. That ending works only for those who know what is coming (and were probably on the lookout for it in this film, as I and my friends who'd read the book were), and the tacked-on Osgiliath stuff fails to leave any lasting impression. Still, the Helm's Deep sequences are, of course, great, focused in a way the Pelennor Fields of ROTK are not and maybe could not be.Jake Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15532951308638768249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-12412884465431096092012-12-10T15:51:15.992-06:002012-12-10T15:51:15.992-06:00Aliens is the worst "extended cut" I'...Aliens is the worst "extended cut" I've ever seen, thanks entirely to those daft (and unnecessary) scenes with the colonists. The other stuff they put back in is fine though. <br /><br />By contrast, Alien 3 may actually be the best. Although the LOTR films add more content, they're adding content to films that were already brilliant in the first place. What the Alien 3 extended version does is turn an argubly poor film into an almost brilliant one. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10451725864121168941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-14914828070298819972012-12-10T14:32:19.705-06:002012-12-10T14:32:19.705-06:00Oooh, I like the Director's Cut idea, Tim! I e...Oooh, I like the Director's Cut idea, Tim! I especially like that I'm not the only one who prefers the latter Close Encounters cut(s) instead of the theatrical version. Usually when I say that, I get a wall of "NO YOU SHOULDN'T SEE INSIDE THE SHIP SHUTUP YOU'RE STUPID", but mainly, I think the film just...flows so much better now. Every time I see it my appreciation for it grows. Top 5 Spielberg? Possibly.<br /><br />And ya know, now that I'm rambling here about your future articles, I always wanted to ask you what your favorite films were. I know you've done Best of the Decade and Best Ever and all sorts of lists, but I ALSO know that for a lot of people Best doesn't always equal favorite. Like, I know you probably wouldn't put Moulin Rogue in your Best Movies Ever list, but it's one of your favorites, right? And for me personally, I know Ordet is deeper, would place higher on a Greatest Movies Ever list, has all those super-serious criteria that cinephiles clamor for, with all it's importance and repressive alienating presentation...but any random day of the week I'd probably prefer to watch Raiders of the Lost Ark or True Romance instead. Do you ever feel the same, or does your love of The Passion of Joan of Arc stretch into favoritism as well?Jeremyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12219137212221355997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-31273611420450803342012-12-10T12:53:13.783-06:002012-12-10T12:53:13.783-06:00On the subject of director's cuts, Tim you'...On the subject of director's cuts, Tim you've mentioned before how Michael Mann can't ever seem to let his movies go, and I think that, in a number of cases, that's been to the detriment of the "director's cut" version. In particular, the specatular opening sequence of the theatrical cut of <i>Miami Vice</i> which started in the club <i>in media res</i> with so much energy and ambiguity and it let the audience catch up and engage with the world. It was ruined by the "director's cut" which gave us all that crappy speed-boat stuff and spelled out exactly what kind of operation was going down in the club. Other, admittedly more minor, cuts Mann made to the detriment of his own work are in <i>Last of the Mohicans</i> and even <i>Heat</i>. Cameron Whitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18214744792123290790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-47019291779149973682012-12-10T12:07:49.665-06:002012-12-10T12:07:49.665-06:00Awww... does everybody think I'm that much of ...Awww... does everybody think I'm <i>that</i> much of a grouch? I enjoy me a good epic spectacle. These aren't my favorites, but I still like them, I'm just sort of bemused by all the "Best cinema of the century!" praise that stuck around them for so many years (and still does, in places). I'm also unnerved by the number of people referring to their "childhood" in regard to the movie I saw on the first day I legally bought alcohol at a bar.<br /><br />But I'm glad everybody is mostly enjoying them. I like to think of myself as a fair man.<br /><br />Also, this subject is rich enough to supply a separate post, but I thought some prelim work might be in order, and since y'all brought it up:<br /><br />Extended/directors cuts that are better than the original in every way (besides those already mentioned):<br />-<i>Brazil</i><br />-<i>Close Encounters of the Third Kind</i> (the 1998 cut)<br />-<i>Star Trek: The Motion Picture</i><br />-<i>Leon</i>, <i>Das Boot</i>, <i>The Descent</i> (in all three cases, I think the "theatrical" cut was solely for the U.S.)<br /><br />The extended <i>Aliens</i> and <i>Alien 3</i> are both mostly better, each with one scene that I would have rather not been included.<br /><br />Undoubtedly there are more; I want to come back to this topic. It's fun!Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09491952893581644049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-80374022221518768112012-12-10T10:59:42.645-06:002012-12-10T10:59:42.645-06:00"Blade Runner"- oh I definitely prefer t..."Blade Runner"- oh I definitely prefer the "Final Cut" (or whatever it's called) to.....the 8 or 9 other versions that.....aren't that. ;)<br /><br />At least everybody can stop worrying about it. IT'S DONE!!RickRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17060339578835099120noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-13357557611619866692012-12-10T09:35:16.507-06:002012-12-10T09:35:16.507-06:00@RickR: I think Tim said it best about the Abyss&#...@RickR: I think Tim said it best about the Abyss' special edition, that the ending may be corny but at least it's ABOUT something. The theatrical version is...nothing, lol. Coffey is defeated than Deus Ex Machina aliens save the team inexplicably. As for the other Cameron special editions, I prefer the original cut. Terminator 2 is bloated enough as it is without any more additional, needless scenes, and Aliens always gave me the Ripley/Newt relationship a tone I didn't like. It made it seem like Newt was a replacement for her daughter, and it made their bond seem less special.<br /><br />That said, while I'm still not the biggest fan of Blade Runner outside it's incredible production design, I can't recommend that theatrical cut to ANYBODY, with the tacked-on happy ending and Ford's droning, terrible narration. We get enough monotone Harrison Ford delivery in the movie as it is :pJeremyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12219137212221355997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-78149202796760158072012-12-10T09:12:59.999-06:002012-12-10T09:12:59.999-06:00Extended/Director's cuts are nice (and I own t...Extended/Director's cuts are nice (and I own the LOTR EEs) but IMO the only extended version of a movie I've seen that's absolutely essential is "The Abyss". It makes the theatrical version seem barely like a finished movie at all.RickRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17060339578835099120noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-75233425217502049422012-12-10T09:01:28.113-06:002012-12-10T09:01:28.113-06:00I'll join the chorus of voices that thought yo...I'll join the chorus of voices that thought you were gonna rip these things apart and leave me crying into my Extended Blu-Ray boxset, but these have all been...very agreeable and incredibly well-written reviews!<br /><br />For me, LotR is one of those rare set of films where most of my critical evaulations I use when I see a film seem to fade away, and I'm totally sucked into the magic of the movie. The grandeur, the performances, the music, the breadth(if not depth) of this epic...I think it's quite an accomplishment. I'm well aware none of these characters as individually nearly as interesting as say, T.E. Lawrence. I'm aware of the storytelling problems present. I STILL think those damn RotK endings go on waaaay too long.<br /><br />But I do love these films just the same, warts and excess and all. <br /><br />Looking forward to the RotK and eventual Hobbit review to round this out!Jeremyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12219137212221355997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-52323290156621926432012-12-10T07:08:27.932-06:002012-12-10T07:08:27.932-06:00The alternate cut of Alien is just damn weird. I ...The alternate cut of Alien is just damn weird. I get that Ridley Scott refused to sign-off on the (not at all) director's cut they put together, feeling it destroyed the pacing of the film, so he did that instead, but it's just... Odd.<br /><br />Aliens, on the other hand, I pretty much love the director's cut, even the one part that most people hate.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04546972990126033036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-29978335901491090832012-12-10T06:17:27.489-06:002012-12-10T06:17:27.489-06:00I'm going to have to disagree a little bit on ...I'm going to have to disagree a little bit on the CGI work for Gollum. I know it's a matter of opinion, but to me there was always something that just felt fake about him. It's hard to explain specifically why that is, other than that there's a difference between knowing something is fake because it would be impossible for it not to be, and knowing it's fake because it doesn't feel right.<br /><br />I haven't watched Jurassic Park in a while, but I've always considered that movie to be the pinnacle of CGI. The dinosaurs are just flat out convincing, particularly T-Rex's first scene. I can't think of any shot from that movie where the illusion fails, and it's an example of the "it <i>has to be</i> fake" variety that's the only way we know it's fake. Then again, it came out when I was a dinosaur-obsessed little boy of 9 years and was thus the greatest thing in the history of things, so maybe I'm biased.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07865927808936178525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-42062503611765465282012-12-10T05:53:57.199-06:002012-12-10T05:53:57.199-06:001. Gollum is pretty much the best thing in this mo...1. Gollum is pretty much the best thing in this movie, Andy Serkis is awesome, the visual effects are <i>mostly</i> as good as it was before, but I think somehow Blu-Ray didn't do it justice. I have no idea why, but there are times when I felt Gollum didn't quite belong in the same space as say Frodo and Sam. I'm not sure whether it was because of his skin texture or the lighting, but HD remastering seems to make it more obvious that he is a computer effect, and not skin and bones and blood.<br /><br />2. The production design is indeed a step down due to a lesser number of locations, but I still think it holds up quite well. Edoras in particular invokes Dark Age European villages in an intentional way, I thought. That said, I feel like a horrible person that I half expected some of these villagers to talk about some lovely filth there.<br /><br />3. I suppose it's not controversial at all to say that the Battle of Helm's Deep is better than the Siege of Gondor/Battle of Pellenor Fields later on, but yeah. The set-up, the choreography, the miniature work, the ridiculously effective visual effects. I did not mind the elves being present there at all (though I would have thrown a pathologically hissy fit if Arwen turned up as planned). Hell, I did not even mind Legolas shield surfing, though I did regret the effect that bit scene had for inspiring the very worst part of the big battle scene in Return of the King.<br /><br />4. Like someone has said above me, I was expecting you to tear my childhood some two new assholes, only to find that we have very similar stances on every aspect, thinking that the three movies held up okay over the past decade, though not the masterpiece trilogy we all thought it to be. Though I'm surprised that you liked the cinematography more than I did. Maybe it's because you didn't have a drinking game for downing a shot for every helicopter shot present whereas I did. There are not many decisions I regret, but I regret <i>that</i>.<br /><br />5. Can't wait for your review of The Lord of the Rings: The End Goes Ever On and On.Atrophyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12343178335810325537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-14833053940478211072012-12-10T04:17:59.711-06:002012-12-10T04:17:59.711-06:00I think that extended cuts improve a film more oft...I think that extended cuts improve a film more often than not, although LOTR and Apocalypse Now are, along with Alien (which had least didn't make a long film much longer like the other two) are often my go-to examples of extended cuts that didn't much improve, if not actually detrimented the film. I imagine Jackson's announce 195-minute(!) cut of Hobbit Pt. 1 (and presumably the other two) will go on that list as well.Chris Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07633087241215626035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14812333.post-29354267687833226272012-12-10T03:28:02.784-06:002012-12-10T03:28:02.784-06:00The first few paragraphs had me worried that you w...The first few paragraphs had me worried that you were about to get real negative on this film, since it easily my favorite of the three. Glad to see ultimately you agree.<br /><br />Strange confession time: With the exception of the French Plantation scene, I have never met anything in an extended cut of a good movie that I didn't like. Ever. Virtually every director's cut/extended cut/whatever has, for me, improved the movies. Hell, even all the other added bits of the Redux make Apocalypse Now better, in my mind. Almost Famous? Love it. 40 minutes longer Bootleg cut? LOVE IT. <br /><br />Daredevil? Meh. 20 minute longer dirctor's cut? Surprisingly effective.<br /><br />The two mediocre Chris Columbus HP movies? Whatevs. The longer cuts? Slightly better whatevs.<br /><br />So, yeah, I think the extended cuts improve all 3 LOTR movies by a lot.<br /><br />But man, the Battle of Helm's Deep on screen only has the slightest passing resemblance to the couple paragraphs in the book.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04546972990126033036noreply@blogger.com